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The author at Economist's View in a related article titled Class Follow-Up writes:
The author at New Economist in a related article titled Why are some economists such snobs? writes:
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dryfly writes:
When my father was studying economics at the University of Minnesota (post-WWII GI Bill) he was told the following allegory on 'luck' as it applies to 'success'... Two maggots were riding on the back of a manure wagon down a bumpy country road. The wagon hit a pot hole and tossed both maggots & some manure. One maggot landed on hard stony ground without any manure or other nourishment. He struggled and struggled but try as he may in the end he shriveled and perished. The other maggot landed on a big fat pile of poop, ate well and grew into a big brightly colored house fly and flew off. To this day the fly tells everyone who will listen that he owes his success to hard work and morality. My father (who has been quite successful) attributes most of his success to luck. He was raised in a working class family in the depression and believes he never would have gone to university had it not been for the GI Bill. Instead he would have followed his family into the factories & meat packing plants that were common in his industrial Midwestern hometown. Once in college he busted his butt to make sure he didn't end up BACK in those same plants. So you could say he overcame 'class' with 'hard work'. Or you could say 'social engineering' via the GI Bill was what made it all possible. This argument is not a 'Choose A or B Only' issue. But denying 'class' doesn't play at least a roll in outcomes is denying the obvious. Posted May 31, 2006 3:15 PM
Arnold Kling writes:
Dryfly, I think that there is a continuum of luck. Some people are extremely lucky. Some are extremely unlucky. But most people are somewhere in the middle. Your father's parable of the maggots makes it sounds like everyone is at either one extreme or the other, and I think that's misleading. The GI bill is probably the best example to cite of a policy that has government playing a constructive role. It shows that government education vouchers can be constructive. If only we had something like the GI bill for K-12 education, instead of No child Left Behind. Posted May 31, 2006 4:05 PM
dryfly writes:
But most people are somewhere in the middle. Your father's parable of the maggots makes it sounds like everyone is at either one extreme or the other, and I think that's misleading. Its a parable... its simplified to make a point and I think it makes it pretty well. The point is 'luck' plays a huge part in success & failure, more than we realize. In most cases we can't see the piano that barely missed us but we sure do know how much work we did to get where we are... and then spend a whole lot of time telling others how hard that work was. In short our view of reality is skewed - the known & unknown weighted differently. Class is often one of the 'unknowns' if it so happens your station in life didn't hold you back. However if you DID have to overcome great difficulty (and some to their credit do) then you would know just how big a hurdle it was. The two maggots had completely different views as to what caused their outcomes. Even the most ardent of us 'lefty class warfare' types realize that at least in some cases even the most severe hurdles can be overcome. But instead of focusing on the 'pathology' of the failed we look to lower the hurdles if they can't be removed altogether. We can debate specific fixes - vouchers or affirmative action or GI Bill like programs. Fine, I see positives & negatives in all and am open to that. But the first step is to recognize there is a class 'issue' (not necessarily a 'problem') and then being open to 'remedies'. The stereotype we 'lefties' have of the right is they don't even want to do that. Posted May 31, 2006 5:16 PM
Susan writes:
My parents met in a halfway house for mentally ill patients (I am not kidding about this -- we actually tease my mom about it nowadays). My dad couldn't hold a job down and he wouldn't let my mom work. They finally divorced when she realized he would never take his medication regularly. He eventually became homeless and died of a massive heart attack under a city bridge when I was 14. Despite several hospitalizations for depression, my mom worked very hard to keep herself together and raise us kids. We consider ourselves lucky because most of the rest of the family is middle class. They bought us a modest car, paid for some school clothes, piano lessons for my sister and I and sports for my brother. We lived on public assistance our whole lives. I can recount many times when state assistnce programs had a direct, positive effect on our lives. Like the summer activity programs that the state paid for while we were wards of the court (during the divorce) which allowed my mom the space she needed to learn how to cope with single parenthood. This helped to convince the court to grant her custody so she could continue raising us. After the divorce, we waited for 5 years to get into subsidized housing. During our wait, family members once again came to our rescue and helped mom out with rent. We went to food banks regularly. When I was 15, I took advantage of a state funded worker's training program which gave me experience with the working world. It also allowed me to buy my own clothes and took pressure off of the family budget. I am now raising two children of my own. I've been married for almost ten years and have the kind of life I always wanted growing up. We are not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but we are doing okay. Now that my life is more settled, I am able to pursue goals, like going to college, that I was too disorganized to pursue as a young adult. In this country, the middle and upper classes are, by and large, totally disconnected from people who live in poverty. They don't understand their problems or their needs. You might think my story isn't typical. But, there is truth to the notion that poverty has a lot to do with mental illness. There are very few poor people who are smart but lazy. But, there are a lot of poor people with low IQ's, mental illness, personality disorders, persistant drug addiction, or victims of violent or abusive childhoods. I know this because I grew up surrounded by these types of people. A welfare handout isn't going to change the reason a person is poor to begin with. If you took welfare payments away tomorrow, it isn't going to "reform" a whole lot of welfare recipients. But it will result in desperation. Children, especially, would suffer. Dryfly is also right. A lot of how a person does in life has to do with luck. Sometimes luck involves things like the GI bill. Sometimes luck involves being born into the right family or being born with the right talents and abilities. So, while I don't begrudge people who take pride in their hard work, I also think that they should be humble enough to be thankful for good luck. I know I am. Posted May 31, 2006 11:31 PM
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